Minuteman Road Club

With Bruce leading an "orderly" paceline ride at 6:10pm I thought this might give us the opportunity to do something different for the usual ride.

So here is my idea (assuming we can dodge the thunder storms):

Fast paced double pace line the whole way. No attacking on the hills but no waiting if someone gets dropped (they can pick up with Bruce when his group come through). We ride it as if we are in a breakaway and see how fast we can get round.

Who's in? (Alan I'm sure we spoke about this before as something you wanted to do)

Will we be faster than the lightning?

I love this type of ride. I'm in. (weather permitting of course)

---Chris

rusto wrote:Will we be faster than the lightning?

Hopefully....that way we will stay dry

Sounds like fun! I will be in LP doing a nice leisurely ride.

Damn!

Would love to try this out but have to be home tomorrow. Will watch for future FAST Pacelines... weather should hold for y'all.

Chris, when's your next tri?

Maybe we can alll regroup at Jo Jo White's new sports bar (Jo Jo's) about 5 mins away. Bring a change of clothes!

Please read this with the understanding that I'm trying to be an educator here. I know that tone is difficult to communicate through text only. The intended tone here is not angry or frustrated, I'm just trying to be helpful because I know that there are more than a few riders out there who are relatively new to the whole group training experience and don't realize just how big a deal this really is.

Most of the Stow route is twisty enough that cars have a difficult time seeing very far ahead and therefore have a difficult time passing cyclists. A double paceline makes this even more difficult.

Here's the cold hard truth, we all need to practice riding SINGLE file first. Typically when we are supposedly riding single file, there are riders spread out all the way from the gutter to the yellow line. There should never be any reason at all for anyone to have to scream: "Car Back". The only time this is necessary is when someone is riding in the middle of the road.
When you hear "Car Back" what you are really hearing is a fellow rider yelling at you to get the hell out of the middle of the road and start riding single file.

There shouldn't need to be a special post for a "paceline" ride. That's what a group training ride is supposed to be. All the time.

There is only one commandment when riding paceline: Follow the wheel in front of you by staying DIRECTLY behind it.

There are two simple reasons why inexperienced riders break this commandment:
1) riders want to see the road ahead and drift 12-24 inches off to one side for a better view. DON'T!
You need to trust the wheel in front of you. If you can't do that then one or both of you shouldn't be in the paceline.
2) The wheel in front has slowed and you want to keep your momentum so you coast up alongside for a while. DON'T!
When your front wheel overlaps someone's rear wheel, you risk taking down the whole line by touching wheels, you have broken formation, you have taken up the space that was part of someone's buffer zone, ...
When your draft slows down, You slow down!

All of that having been said, you might see me break this commandment in the one exceptional confluence of circumstances where it doesn't apply. If you (1) have a clear view on a straight road and (2) you can see that there are no cars around and (3) the riders around you have no expectation that you will be keeping to a paceline formation. Like in a planned sprint, or when the effort has been shut down and you're in conversation mode. (Both still assume that exceptions (1) and (2) still hold)

Please don't take offense. I'm only speaking up (and risking the wrath of anyone offended) because a few riders have specifically told me that they know very little about riding in a group and have asked for help with the big ideas.

If you guys want a good example to follow, watch Alan. Try to do exactly what he does.

I hope to make it over to join you guys again if the weather holds.

Michael, thanks for the leadership on that. I think everyone appreciates it. It is critical to the safety of the group to ride in a paceline as opposed to a pacemob. I think MRC has grown lately with a lot of new riders coming in who are very strong, but have not had appropriate initiation into the protocols of the peleton, or to the skills required to ride comfortably in the draft of other riders. Cycling in the US is a grassroots club system where expereinced riders pass down these skills and customs to newer riders. Unfortunately, in the last year or so w've had a lot of strong nw riders come in at a time when many of the more experienced riders have, for one reason or another either left the club or haven't been racing actively or aren't fit (like me). This is compounded to a degree by the fact that we have an extraordinary multisport team and there is a lot more crossover in the ride(s), and I think there is just a more natural mindset of trying to ride by oneself or in front of someone else. There is a lot of fanning out across the road and a lot of half wheeling (very bush league), both at front and back.

Several years ago I was lucky enough to be on a training ride with Mark and Frank Mccormack and some ex-pro masters guys. It was announced that we were riding tempo. A couple of times I felt a soft yank on my jersey. We were riding two up and I kept letting a gap open with the rider to my right, drifting out too far out. When I was at the front I got the same thing, a couple tugs on my jrsey. Mark said, "you are halfwheeling Frank." (Halfwheeling is when you are riding side by side with someone and you keep pulling slightly ahead or behind them, or if you are in the pack you cross wheels). I asked him to explain and he just said its a bush league, rookie thing to do. You are not trying to one up one another, you should be riding cooperatively with one another. Every ride needs a strong authority to keep people in line and they have a responsibility to do so. Newer riders should be hungry to learn how to do it right, so that when you get into a ride with Cat 1/2/3/ riders you're not going to totally embarrass yourself. That will reflect poorly on MRC.

pwess wrote:
Chris, when's your next tri?

I'm mostly a crit & cross guy, I've never done a tri. I have a balky knee so I avoid running. But I do love threshold training....

---Chris

Thanks Bruce and Michael for your terrific posts. While I'm new to the group and haven't been paceline riding in many years, one basic rule I hold to of is staying in line with the person in front of you. I admit I have been following too close, however and have been cautioned to keep a 1/2 wheel distance from the rider in front of me. Alan does set a great example: he is as steady as a rock riding in a group (is he a roller rider in the off season?).

A few Wednesday's ago, we were heading out on South Acton Road and a car approached from behind. I can't remember if we ever ended up as a single-file paceline but the driver grew impatient and decided to pass us as he (and we) were on our way up one of the rollers along that road. To give us plenty of room, they passed by going into the oncoming lane - and of course, a car came from the other direction just as he crested the roller. Horns-brakes-etc ensued. Many of you will remember this incident.

On Sunday, during the CTTC, I was just getting dropped by a group of about 8 others on Rte. 140, heading towards Mile Hill Road. A Ford Explorer was trying to pass them and even though he was blowing his horn, they still rode two abreast with one outboard rider riding mid-lane and waving the car past into oncoming traffic.

More often than not, a passing driver will allow much more room than necessary to pass an individual cyclist - in my experience, the distance they allow is even greater when passing a group. There is nothing we can do about the driver's driving ability or attitude, we can't even know it as they approach us. We are best served by assuming they are timid or dangerous and acting accordingly.

Also note that when we do our training rides, many/most of us will be wearing our MRC kits and so our group will be easily identifiable should a driver complain. Worse yet, if someone decides to "blow their cork" the NEXT time they see a MRC cyclist on the road, they might be taking it out on an innocent party.

One of the things that drew me into MRC was the friendliness and courtesy of the members - we would do well to extend the same qualities to those we share the road with, regardless how aware they are of who has the right of way, etc. in bike/car interactions.
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All that said, we do break the rules of the road significantly when it comes to intersections we are FAMILIAR with: ie., lead rider serving as "eyes" for everyone else, calling "clear" or "car left/right" as we each, in turn, do the same for those behind us as we roll through. I raise this issue not to change the behavior, but to seek the rationale with which I could explain this to someone who would take us to task for it.

ok, so I am probably one of those people who will occasionally ride to the left or right of the wheel in front of me. However, I don't overlap wheels (unless someone jams on their brakes or something). Also: the stowe route is pretty hard for riding a paceline! When I lived in Chicago it was fairly easy to get a line running; the biggest issue was training riders to avoid quickly standing and throwing their bike backwards into the rider behind them.

Something should be said regarding maintaining the pace. It is really easy if you aren't doing a smoothly rotating line to pick up the pace too quickly and create chaos (and yes -feel free to yell at me if I do this). However, I did get yelled at last week for setting a high tempo out of the parking lot. This was a bit annoying - especially as I thought it was a nice smooth tempo

Another issue is the bungie-cord effect. If people in front of me bungie-ing my inclination is keep up my pace and slowly come back to the wheel instead of causing problems for the people behind me by trying to follow the wheel too closely.

pace21 wrote:

pwess wrote:
Chris, when's your next tri?

I'm mostly a crit & cross guy, I've never done a tri. I have a balky knee so I avoid running. But I do love threshold training....

---Chris

Sorry Chris - have you mixed up with another Chris...

Carl brings up two good points:

1) If you take over the lead position, just keep things going at the pace the person before you held. We've been pretty good at announcing intended pace before a ride here on the forum or just as we are heading out, so it should not be a mystery. Unless a sprint has been announced, there is no reason you can't take a quick look at your current speed and keep things going at the same pace. If you can't maintain it, flick your elbow and let the next rider take over.

A few weeks ago, Kimball led a ride along the 60 mile CTTC route and did a great job of spelling out EVERYTHING we needed to know for the ride: intended pace, how long each person was to pull, what to do if you could not take your turn on lead, how to handle folks at risk of being dropped, etc. And along the way, since we had this framework explicitly established, we were able to communicate effectively about making adjustments to it.

2) "bungie cord effect" - this is caused by different behaviors but can be avoided in large part by keeping that 1/2 wheel gap in front of you. Let the gap absorb the speed variations of the one in front of you. Your duty is to use that gap to reduce that variation for the person behind you - don't jam on your brakes, feather them or soft pedal a bit to widen the gap. Don't stomp on the pedals to reduce the gap, increase your speed gradually and bring the riders behind along with you.

Certainly, one should practice maintaining forward momentum when coming out-of-saddle: just scoot your bike forward a bit as you do - you can use up some of that 1/2 wheel gap you have.

I have also noticed some folks are in the habit of looking behind them when in the paceline and as they do so, wobble a bit or slow up a bit. The last rider in line is responsible for keeping an eye/ear on what is going on behind the paceline, everyone else's attention should be forward. Exception: initiating a sprint.
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I'm not sure if this is common behavior but it sure helps me: if you are near the back of paceline and a rider is drifting back after his/her pull, let them know how much farther they have to go to pick up the last wheel by saying something like, "one more behind me". If you are last, just call out, "last" as they come abreast of you. This will help them prepare to latch on and keep from being dropped.

OK I just realised that there was a "lost in translation" moment that may have caused some of this discussion. When I mentioned riding "double paceline" I meant "rotating". The sooner you colonials realise it is futile messing around with the Queens English and start using "two up" and "wheeling about" the world will be a much better place. It is unfortunate that the roads we ride on are quite as narrow that riding double paceline at this time of day isn't safe. This is the staple format for club rides in the UK and it's a lot easier for people to get educated when they are riding beside someone.

Anyway there is a lot of good comment in the thread. With the larger numbers riding over the last couple of weeks our lines have been pretty messed up and it is difficult for people to get educated when we have a single paceline strung out over 50 yards. If we have 2 smaller groups tonight and communicate when we are riding. (My education in group riding was typically grass roots Scottish style. If you are sitting in the wrong place, not holding your line, half wheeling, not pulling through, pulling through too fast, sitting there having fun you get swore at. May not be very inclusive but it works).

My ride intent, if we have enough people, is to ride the usual warm-up to the junction of South Acton Road and Stow Road then start to work as a team, rotating paceline as much as possible (if there are cars back or front struggling to get past then we automatically revert to single file). This will eliminate the accelerations (I know I'm guilty) that cause us to stop and start normally. I'm happy to lead this and swear as much as possible at everyone.

Who's coming out to ride?

In.

Can't make this week, my back is totally f*cked right now, need to take some time off or my entire 'cross season will be in jeopardy.

CARL, I have two pair of bibs for you. If you like, I can swing down to the Shaws lot at 6pm and hand 'em off.

John,
I think you explained your idea of double paceline to me before. I should have remembered.
It would be much easier to teach if we could ride in what I would call a double paceline but these roads don't really allow that.
If tonight everyone works on just keeping a wheel, then later on we can work on the more subtle paceline skills like what to do when you get to the front. (Sometimes the pace needs to change in response to the road but the effort level shouldn't)

I think I'll be able to make it tonight.

Wow !
Glad that you all are getting reorganized. I know that our club has not had the skills clinic that they/we had hoped for .

Safety first ! Respect the vehicles ( no lecture needed )

I would just like to add an additional tip / advice/ request .... When you get out of your saddle - be it on a hill or a flat ..please make every effort to have and keep a forward momentum. Sometimes when upon rising the bike/ rider will dip backward into " wheel " , person drafting behind them .

I had noticed this on a few rides - ( before getting dropped on those gentle slopes).
I have noticed that alot of the newbies have been gaining smoother paceline/ drafting skills on the flats .

T

In.

As long as we're all ranting, bordering on grouchy, and offering advise on how to ride...I'd just like to say: "Pacelines, group rides and aero bars. One of these things does not belong." I don't mean to offend...

No one is grouchy here

I was referring primarily to myself.

Tonight was MUCH tighter than recent Wednesdays. It could have been because we went so fast from the gun that things got strung out and there wasn't much chance to overlap or bunch up. It could have been because people were more aware of their positions within the group. I think it was a little of both, but regardless my comment of "much improved" still stands.
There are several finer points that still need work but the first commandment seems to have sunk in.

I didn't bail on you guys out of any frustration. You were just going faster than I planned to go today. I dropped back to the 6:10 group.

Once we got to the top of Oak Hill and regrouped at Pinnacle Road, Smudger reorganized us into a "double" or "circular" paceline instead of the "single" paceline we've been accustomed to:



We tried it out very slowly along that flat-ish section at the top there but eventually started heading downhill, making it difficult to maintain.

After bombing down Old Littleton Road and turning off 111 onto Depot Road, we assembled the new configuration in earnest. Although, it broke up during slightly during the climb up Fruitlands (I dropped my chain near the top), we were able to quickly reassemble at the Rte. 110 intersection and maintained it well to the next climb up Bare Hill Road. We got back in the groove again on Bolton Road and everyone seemed much more comfortable with it by then.

Again, during the descents eventually leading to Stow Road, the paceline dissolved but regrouped for the stretch leading to Taylor Road - we were really able to keep up a fast pace at this point (somebody had to tug my jersey to slow me down when I peeled off from my pull).

From Taylor through to S. Acton Road, the group more or less stayed together but would split up a bit as the attacks that typically occur on those roads took place.

By the numbers I recorded, this was the fastest circuit of the Wednesday ride that I've participated in.It was definitely one of the most fun.