Lance and LeMond....(sigh) again...

[rmazzola]

Will someone please tell LeMond to shut the F up and go away??! He is the King of Sour Grapeland.

From the AP:
Meanwhile fellow American Greg Lemond, who won the Tour de France in 1986, 1989 and 1990, said Armstrong's return was not good for the sport.
"His return is not good news," Lemond told AFP in Las Vegas. "It's like a nightmare, that we have lived through all these years, returning."

You mean it's your nightmare of someone getting yet more attention than you are.

What an ass.

[michael todisco]

LeMond is a jealous, big cry baby who has tried to take down Lance in the past and failed. He obviously using this as an opportunity to open his big mouth....and stick his foot into it.

How can this be bad for cycling? If anything it will be good considering media attention, positive spin for a sport that has suffered since Lance retired...(from what I have read, Lance has consented to being tested at any time by and independent DR who will be traveling with Astana).

LeMond is so stupid....he benefits from the bike business if there is growth, so why would he shoot down a figure like Lance if there is renewed enthusiasm and bikes are being purchased, especially his!

I just don't get him at all....

[chindogu]

To be fair to LeMond, he was asked the question by a reporter and gave his frank answer.

Stop bitching about other people bitching.

[michael todisco]

Not bitching....

Regardless of who asked him a question and whether or not his answer was frank or not...his comment reveals who he really is and his hidden agenda (not so hidden).... Words have meaning and his words indicate a man who has an axe to grind against Lance for some reason (you can decide what the reasons are)

LeMond could have said...... "No comment" or "No Opinion" or or or .....

[Rob]

hmmm, I can see (or read) that you don't take your own advice....

[michael todisco]

Rob: you read me well .. so in response.. No comment....

[michaelcole]

I'm a big Lance fan. Been to Texas to ride with him in his charity ride many times. I have all the Oakley posters for each of his first several tour victories. I've even defended his cyclocross skills to MRC members with superior skills.

But LeMond was just as good a tour racer, overcame just as big (or bigger) a health crisis to win more tours, did it on a weaker team and still raced in the classics.

He gets to speak his mind. He earned that right repeatedly. He also has been in position to know more about the behind the scenes type stuff than almost anyone out there and he's been convinced that Lance was dirty. If he kept his mouth shut about what he knows he'd be a wuss. He's got the balls to speak up even if it goes against better business logic. That's called integrity.

Is it really that hard to believe that it's at least possible that LeMond is right and Lance was dirty?
No one could believe that Tyler might be dirty when the first accusations were made and Lance was never as much of a boy scout as Tyler. But people still think its some kind of sin to doubt him.

LeMond was probably the last Tour champion to win without drugs.

[michael todisco]

Cole:

Never have, nor will I ever take anything away from LeMond athletic achievements, no question that he was great.

Earned the right to speak his mind? Slander is slander, LeMond has to prove it, he hasn't and he's pissed. LeMond is a public figure, not just another retired bicycle racer.

He would be less of a wuss if made it his mission to take Lance down, rather than throwing out comments and accusations when someone shoves a microphone in his face.

As a business man I would never accuse a competitor of cheating to the public without proof...that, in my mind, is called integrity.

Back to you

[michaelcole]

I agree that the Lance vs. Greg fued is a sad affair but here's why I'm not taking sides in it.
I am defending Greg from you guys because you all seem to have taken a side.

The people on the inside of the bike racing industry (racers, team staff, etc.) have until recently been unwilling to talk about what they know because it threatened their own paychecks. These are people who see the doping practices with their own eyes, or who hear discussions about who to go to to buy the stuff and who the other customers are.
By most reports out there, it wasn't long ago that doping was so pervasive in the peloton that it was openly discussed by the users. There were no denials from within the peloton unless the discussion left the peloton. I know of a pro who said that the only reason he wasn't using EPO was because it was too expensive, not fear of getting caught. Word was that everyone knew who to go to in the states if you wanted to score the stuff. I have even heard from many, many independent sources that drug use is fairly common amongst some of the amateur racers (masters specifically) that we all see out there each weekend.

Here's the main problem with accusations that come from the "inside". They don't have the kind of proof that people on the outside want to see. The insiders don't need documents and physical evidence to know who's doping, they witnessed it or heard the admissions of use. They are in a position to know.

Let's say that someone you knew admitted to you that they had committed a crime but you couldn't prove it.
Maybe you heard about the crime from someone that you trusted and had reason to believe.
You don't have proof, but you know the truth. Would you be able to remain silent?

LeMond is no longer racing but is certainly an insider and therefore "in a position to know" about the details of life in the peloton. If he says he knows things, I'm in no position to challenge him.

And Mike... He hasn't slandered anyone. Slander is an intentionally damaging and false statement that claims to be factual.
He hasn't given anything more than his opinions. If there had been any slander, there would have been an immediate lawsuit.
Lance has more lawyers on his staff than coaches or trainers and he loves a good fight, if he thinks he can win it.

[JoeH]

What Coley said. As far as the Disco retort, just because there may not be iron-clad, irrefutable evidence which indicates that Lance juiced, one can't say for a fact that he did not. By using the argument that just because evidence has not been produced, then that makes him pure as the Virgin Mary, doesn't seem rational given the current state of the Pro Tour. Hope you're not a Barry Bonds apologist too. I think that by a champ of his stature taking a very public anti-doping stand against such a revered figure shows character and helps prod reforms for the sport. Besides, I've never ridden with Lance, but I did get drunk with LeMond once(where's Bauer?)

[michaelcole]

I got drunk with Greg once too.
Late 90's at an industry party put on by Schwinn during NORBA Nationals weekend.
Hamlet (biggest Lance-Fan ever) was giving Greg shit for being a has-been.
I shut him up with a comment about how a has-been could ride with two flats pulling a Burley trailer full of cinderblocks and still beat a "never-was". Greg almost choked on his beer.

Lance always skips out on the post ride partying. He's all business. He sent his buddy "College" out to dinner with us one year with a message that "maybe he'd come later" because he had business stuff to take care of. But we did a few good Lance stories out of College and Mike Ward.

[michael todisco]

Cole, nice argument, but I disagree with some things:

First, it's not " you guys" anymore, it just me now... This is not, nor did I ever want this debate about LeMond vs. Lance, it's stupid and tiresome...the clean vs the dirty (as you said Greg was the last one to win the tour clean, and you know that to be true because????....)

Listen, if Greg has the "goods" on Lance and is "in the know" as you say, then get on with it and expose him. Unfortunately inside people have to prove to us "outside people" if the want to bring justice to their cause.

Your crime scenarios has 2 versions: I would not go on second hand info from someone else, no matter how much knew or trusted. I certainly would not bring to the public's attention if I did not have the facts or proof necessary to back it up.
Of course if I knew on my own account, I would speak up and if I had the financial means like Greg, I would build a case, collect the evidence hire the legal support necessary to bring the criminal to court. Has he?

Alright maybe not slander, but his "opinions" maybe false and damaging, we just don't know. So if you use the media because you have that option (unlike you or me) and you "speak your mind" and those words are unsubstantiated, then you are released from accountability because you're GL and these are just his opinions with nothing to back it up except as you put it "he's in the know"?

Taken Lance's side???? This started by pointing out the GL has openly said that Lance coming back "is not good news and it's like a nightmare, that we have lived through all these years, returning" and I am left wondering what the hell he means by that.

[michaelcole]

OK last post from me on this topic...
I didn't say that I knew anything to be true. I gave an opinion. I said that Greg was probably the last clean tour champ.
I might not have made my analogy as well as I would have liked.
Let's say that Kadlick and Bently and Mazzola all individually told me from conversations with you that you've been cheating on your taxes for years, and then one day when I mention my taxes you start laughing about how you've found a great way of handling your own.
I don't have any evidence. I don't have an admission. I'm not about to open up a court case against you either because even if I wanted to nail you, I know I don't have anything solid against you. But I'm still 100% certain that you're a cheat. Even if there's a 1% doubt, it might still eat at me enough to share my opinion that I think you're cheating. Especially when I see you hauling your new sailboat off on a vacation.

I think that Greg has something. Obviously not something that he can prove, but something he truly believes.
It's got to eat at him that he can't prove it if he knows it to be true. So much so that he occassionally speaks out.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on Lance being dirty or not. But I am no longer surprised by any reports of anyone doping. I'm starting to agree with Bauer's theory that Absolutely everyone in the Euro pro peloton dopes. Or did from the early 90's until recently. (I do have some hope that the current push towards clean racing might actually be real.)
I heard one guy down at wrentham say that Lance is coming back from his retirement because his chemists have found a way around the new testing procedures. I wouldn't be surprised...

[gcdavid]

I'm not a Lance suck-up, but what he has done to raise money and awareness for cancer is great. There are scores who were inspired by him to fight against their own cancer. Even if his motivations were more self-centered than altruistic (and who is to say what one's motivations are), the good that comes from it is still good. In that respect, he has provided a major contribution.

Lemond seems alright, but he is coming off very bad. I would agree that if you have the proof, then fire away. For better or worse, you are as clean as your tests say you are. Any test has a potential for Type II error (false negatives) as well as Type I error (false positives). But, that's the way it is. I don't know if he doped or not, or whether Lemond doped or not. All I know is neither tested positive.

In terms of a nightmare, perhaps Lemond should have a questionnaire for customers that buy his bikes asking if Lance Armstrong motivated them to ride. If so, he should instruct all distributors to refuse to sell the bikes, less Greg be sullied by the impact of Lance.

[michael todisco]

Last post for me too, unknowns in this argument are many, opionins vs truth vs hearsay and throw in a few analogies on top of it all and what do you get? I council peace...

Note to IRS, Cole is only making an analogy ....

[rmazzola]

Wow - looks like I stirred the pot a bit.

I agree that everyone is entitled to his opinion.

My primary issue is that Lemond is always negative regarding Lance and really shows very little class when asked for a quote.
I got into racing because of his performance on the bike but his performance off the bike is nothing to look up to. He could just as easily replied in a constructive manner but he never seems to miss an opportunity to piss venom when it concerns anything Lance is doing.

[michael todisco]

Thanks for stirring it up Rich....anyway someone just said recently that the board was awful quite of late....